Queen of Swords

I so hear you. *le sigh*

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i'm right there with you.

also, i've never found (as a magician or a shaman) menstrual blood to be a particularly good offering. it's waste blood (biologically). you want to give a blood offering, suck it up and draw it consciously, with intent, with power. make it a worthy offering, not a biological inevitability. geesh.

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This.

Although I don't think people who haven't been taught proper procedure for that kind of thing should make blood offering. Even a poke on the finger can get infected.

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it's not rocket science though. use a diabetic lancet (easily available at most drugstores) and wipe w/ an alcohol swab before and after. Nothing wrong with that.

i agree though, esp. in the case of animal sacrifice; there needs to be a great deal of training, a great deal, and high professional standards.

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That's how I do it, on the rare occasions when I use blood in spells and rituals. I'm just a bit paranoid right now because I have an acquaintance who got a small cut, which led to a staph infection. He's now paralyzed from the waist down.

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oh wow...that is really terrifying. I've had MRSA twice but thankfully just on the skin (picked it up going through an airport, not from giving blood). I've had people ask me why i make such a big deal about cleaning off a tiny diabetic puncture (I always emphasize the need for alcohol swabs, etc.) and well, this is exactly why!!

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margoeve.livejournal.com

::shrug::
Not everyone gets the "deity phone" concept. I know I sure as heck didn't until this year.

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That's what a good diviner is for.

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watcher457.livejournal.com

I have added your journal as a friend, if you don't mind.

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Interesting. . . I didn't even think of this as a "deity phone" type of situation, which I guess betrays how much I take mine for granted.

I guess I just assume that if someone sincerely addresses hirself to a deity and is truly listening for a response, they will receive one. It may take some time, but deities do have a way of making their will known -- if someone is paying attention.

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watcher457.livejournal.com

Even someone who takes their "deity phone" for granted can still get confusing and mixed signals. Of course,

tamyris is correct: that's where you get help from a good diviner. :-)

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heron61.livejournal.com

IME, most neopagans, like most other residents of the first world have never had an actual religious experience (which seem to be fairly rare) and so while they may believe in the gods, they don't know they are real, which makes all the difference when considering questions like this. Even in the neopagan community, actual magicians and mystics are fairly rare.

This is why I decided a few years ago, that in a more sensible world most people would be agnostics or atheists, because I don't think most people (or at least most residents of the first world) really want deep religious/spiritual experiences, and in the absence of such things, religion is merely social convention + empty belief.

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I think I understand what you're saying -- but given that mindset, where does the impulse to make a sacrifice enter into things? The woman posting the question seemed to be speaking from within a context of private devotion, not a group setting. Why even bother with something like a "blood sacrifice"?

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rainstardragon.livejournal.com

"it takes nothing at all to give menstrual blood."

Question prompted by your words... But first a bit of setting up. For some of us, menstrual blood is/was a life threat. I recently had a hysterectomy prompted by the fact that my periods were getting so badly uncontrollable that it had medical professions and my entire family quite worried that I would bleed out. Of course I didn't make an offering of this blood and certainly wasn't thinking about it at the time... but now I find myself wondering what would have happened if I had made an offering of that blood in exchange for getting a non-threatening period. So, in situations like this, where blood loss IS threatening... does gifting of this to an accepting deity truly a "sacrifice?"

Please forgive the question out of left field. Just interesting in your opinion on that sort of circumstance, since it's a bit rarer.

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Rainstardragon, that's a really, really good question. I don't know. Something like this, i'd look at on a case by case basis. I'd certainly see that as more of a sacrifice than the situations I describe above.

I'd probably (were I in that situation) divine on it, or go to see a colleague who could divine for me and take things from there.I really like your idea of making an offering (and here i'd think that menstrual blood *would* be appropriate because of the situation) in exchange for non-life threatening periods. that seems logical both from the "do ut des" theory of sacrifice and also just energetically, especially depending on the Deity you were petitioning. i'd think that given the danger and pain and *need*, that this would make a much more effective offering.

(and thankfully i'm getting notifications again...for awhile lj was not letting me know when folks responded).

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rainstardragon.livejournal.com

Thanks for your answer. Your thoughts seem to coincide with the ones that I was having on pondering such a situation. I always enjoy reading what you have to say when I see you post since it often prompts me to examine situations a bit deeper.

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And i would ask that you show a little respect for someone who is your elder and was your teacher. i will call you (and any other former student) out every single time i find that lacking. When you spoke of blood magic, you entered my realm of expertise. If you're going to be rude enough to contradict your elder, try to do it politely please.

I will apologize for using your use-name. I was under the impression that it was openly connected to this lj name. For that, i do apologize. I will not do that again.

back to the topic of blood:

The power of menstrual blood may well be in the taboo, for those women who define themselves biologically and/or through gender. Power of taboo and power of waste blood are two very different things. The former by its very nature is a very potent thing. When you describe above, the power that you find in menstrual blood, in touching something that has been maligned, what you're describing is the power of taboo and confronting/violating taboo, not the power of the substance itself. They're two very different things. The power is coming from a different place.

I stand by my comment: menstrual blood is not particularly powerful or effective in magic and i would hesitate to use it as an offering to most Deities. I would never, ever use it in offering to any allied spirits. Taboo is something completely different. If one can draw power by violating a taboo around menstruation and this involves touching and using menstrual blood, great. but the power isn't coming from the blood. As a magician (and also as a priest who regularly performs sacrifices) I like to know precisely from where the power is coming in what i do. I don't think that, to remain clean, there should ever be any ambiguity about *that*.

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Shamanic work and magic are two different things -- ask your current teacher about that. I think that person can explain it better than I. I might very well do things as a shaman (and use substances) that I would never dream of as a magician. There's some crossover, but not as much as one might think. Magic is raw energy work and as a power source for that work, menstrual blood fails. I could very well see uses for it as a shaman, not many, but some, particularly with some of the Jotun Deities.

I've used menstrual blood, I"ve used my own blood consciously drawn, i've participated in animal sacrifice (part of my religious practice) and I've explored the differences in those energies. This is my craft. This is what i do. Basically, there is a quality to blood that is consciously drawn (and it is in part the inherent quality of the blood and in part the uniting of that power with the power of the intent) that is completely lacking in menstrual blood, an energy, a particular resonance and force. Life. Save for those ways I have described,(hoodoo, certian elements of down and dirty witchcraft) menstrual blood is indeed not all that useful in magic, not as fuel, not as an energy source to power and fuel a working. This seems to be a particularly difficult concept for women who strongly identify with being female. Perhaps there is a connection with menstrual blood through particularly strong gender identification, or through the doorway of taboo?

Death and decay do have their energies, as does rot...but again, that's something *other* than the substance of the blood itself. Yes, I'm splitting hairs here: when I do a working or make an offering i want to be absolutely sure where the power is coming from. DRawn blood doesn't tap into rot, or decay; it might tap into death energy--particularly with animal sacrifice. What i find so remarkable about drawn blood is that it has power in and of itself, the raw substance has power.

Whatever power there may be in menstrual blood doesn't lie in the substance itself, but what it taps into. that's a completely different dynamic for someone working with it. Perhaps it is easier to tap into for those who are strongly bound up in their identity as women. That would be something to study. I've used pretty much every bodily fluid and then some in magic over the years so i'd love to know if there are some things that require a strong gender identification to work or tap.

as to respect, I was taught that it is intensely disrespectful to rudely contradict one's elder or teacher in a public forum. Ever. As much as I may disagree with my human teachers (and oh i do and often), I'd never dream of showing such disrespect in public. But I've come to the conclusion that this protocol,which was very much ingrained in me and which i strive to ingrain in my own students is not something you're capable of comprehending -- we are coming from two very different places and I think it's very alien for you --so it's up to me to let it go. The alternative is staying irritated and that's not productive for me. I also realize i should have taken this to you privately instead of on this forum and for that i apologize to you and the ...list? (is that what you'd call it?).

I'm likely taking myself off line for a few days...i've been dealing with quite a bit of asshattery from all quarters of late and it's difficult to turn off the 'fight' switch after awhile. So again, my apologies.

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Thank you. I appreciate your forthrightness here. I juggle a lot of hats and when I think of menstrual blood, I slip solely into the magician role (which is different from how i'd respond as a shaman). All in all i think we can both agree that before offering anything, it's a good idea to ASK the Deity in question. LOL

re. respect: I very much was taught that the act of public contradiction is itself disrespectful... because it implies a relationship of peers or equals and one's relationship with elders or teachers is not such a thing. (argue all you want between peers, or privately...good stuff can come of that).

Over the past month I've seen elders and teachers that I respect tremendously, teachers to whom the gods have made me go face down in the dirt in the old sign of respect (I forget what it's called gah, there's a name for when you prostrate yourself...and you're not doing it to the person so much as to the office of 'elder' or 'teacher' because it is a holy thing, and also to the lineage itself) being treated like shit in our various communities, being met with derision and disrespect and more importantly what they teach being spat upon and I fear it made me a bit more hair triggered than I otherwise would be. I do apologize for that.

My training was very, very old-fashioned. I admit that, both the training i had from human teachers, and my breaking down by Sekhmet. ( It worked for me, and built on discipline I already had. It's a difficult thing to translate though for people who don't come from a military background). Likewise it's difficult for me to understand why it's so hard for so many people to fall into that protocol but it is. I haven't yet found a good way to translate it either.

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rainstardragon.livejournal.com

I apologize for breaking into this sub discussion, but I want to thank both laughinggoddess and tamyris for having this discussion in public where protocol, respect, and the student/elder relationship can be talked about. I say this because I know that there are some people out there that have never had such explained to them even by parents.

And to tamyris, was the term you were looking for "obesiance?"

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FYI --

I've screened

tamyris's comment with

laughinggoddess's name. I'll happily unscreen it if Tamyris will edit it with a placeholder for the name.

Thank you both for providing a great deal of food for thought.

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I don't know how to edit with a placeholder....when i tried, i had the option of unscreening or deleting. so ...help.

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I think you have to unscreen the comment, then edit the post to use laughinggoddess' LJ username instead of her use-name.

Don't take that to the bank, though. I'm a hedgewitch, not a technomage.

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When you look at the comment, do you see a pencil icon option at the bottom right? If so, you can click that and edit the comment.

However, I sometimes forget that only paid account holders have that option, and I didn't check to see what you have. If you can not edit it, perhaps you could simply copy/paste the text into a new comment, replace LaughingGoddess's name with her LJ handle, and then repost in response to this comment with a title that calls attention to it being "reposted." It's not the most elegant solution, but I want to respect both LaughingGoddess's privacy and your content and that seems to be the best option for doing so -- although I'd certainly be open to other suggestions.

Thanks!

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anax-anarkhos.livejournal.com

I speak as a guilty man.

I go through all the motions of worship, working on an intellectual basis of what makes sense to me that the gods might want. Even though I know They are quite real and They have Their own opinions.

The reason is simple. Asking Them what They want is opening a door I do not know if I want opened. I am not sure that I want Them that tangled in my life right now. So I keep Them at arms-length.

Knowing, as I do, that it is not enough and will not work for long...

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I just want to make my offering and get my wish granted.

The original poster did remark a couple of times about her experience of the "potency" of a ritual or spellcasting being enhanced by the use of blood -- so maybe her orientation is as much about "improving results" as it is about actual devotion to a deity.

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'make an offering and get a wish granted..." you mean like putting a quarter in a gumball machine? >_< wouldn't it be nice if the Gods and universe worked that way? *sarcasm*

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oakmouse

Sing it, sister. I've had people look at me as though I'd just grown three extra heads when I suggest they ask the deity directly. One once said, falteringly, "You --- you believe in (deity name)?"

Um, no, I know (deity name) exists. Now go talk to them, 'k?

(I can post comments again YAY!)

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watcher457.livejournal.com

Where is the 'like' button for this comment? :D

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royalbananafish.livejournal.com

*like*

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I hardly ever participate in the forums anymore. I got tired of seeing the same questions and answers over and over again. In fact, I deleted my previous account several months ago because I got so tired of it.

Now, I have a new account and use FL primarily for keeping in touch with local folks and events, such as the sacred sexuality meet-up.

But I still get new post notification emails from the groups I'm officially part of, and every so often I'll actually read them. . .

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I'm really starting to agree with this. The only messages I ever get are from folks who don't read my profile and flunked typing 101. That, and like you said... the inanity.

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