Non-Poll Poll: The Afterlife

[qos]

I don't have time to play with LJ's poll maker -- so please just respond in comments, anonymously if you prefer.

What do you believe about the afterlife?
What happens after we die?
Where do we go?
What choices do we have, if any?
Or do we simply cease to exist?

And are the answers to those questions an important part of your spirituality/religious beliefs?

Personally, once I grew up and discarded my childhood beliefs about heaven and hell, I haven't had strong beliefs about what happens after death. While I could experience the Divine in my present life, I didn't believe there was any way to really know what happens after. I'd also come to resent the degree to which religion has been peddled as "afterlife insurance." But Lohain's death had a radical impact on the importance of these questions to me.

I'm not interested in debating anyone about their beliefs, but I am curious.

Will you share with me?

Comments

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

I definitely believe in some kind of afterlife, and kinda believe in reincarnation, even though I cannot justify any of it rationally. I don't feel the need to -- I figure there is way more to it than humans are meant to understand, so I don't fret much about it. Like you say, there is no way to know, and I find it comforting to think about loved ones who have gone before, up there cheering me on :)

[spring-heel-jim.livejournal.com]

You and I may disagree on this one... but....

I don't believe in anything much after death. Just a long peaceful descent into nothingness.

I guess it would scare some people. But I'd much rather face into oblivion than into something I don't know about.

[qos.livejournal.com]

Mutual respectful disagreement can be a wonderful stimulant to friendship.

Thanks for responding.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

My beliefs accord with the ideas expounded in this book (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184855)
Our souls are undergoing a process of education or maturation which involves multiple incarnations.

[thomryng.livejournal.com]

Please preface all applicable sentences with "I believe."

We are a pilgrim people on this world. Like Augustine, I believe the Church exists as an inn, "where wayfarers returning to the eternal homeland are refreshed from their journey".

We are on a journey to God, and it is our appointed fate to exist forever in perfect relationship with God. This state, which as humans we grope for language to explain, is often called "heaven" or even nirvana, or perfect bliss.

This life exists so that we as free beings can make a free choice.

The fact is that there are plenty of people who deny the existence of the Divine, or having ascertained His existence, make the free choice to walk away.

These folks will not arrive at our appointed destination. You can call it "hell", or whatever you like, but it is simply eternity outside the embrace of the Divine.

Personally, I think that's pretty hellish, but I know of several atheists who are perfectly comfortable with this, and at least one Pagan who would prefer hell to the heaven in which I believe.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

(Some of this is going to sound more simplistic than it looks in my head, and some of it is probably going to sound confusing and even downright contradictory, but I guess that's what happens when mortals try to talk about the Eternal Truths.)

I believe that when we die, some part of us goes through an experience of reviewing our life in the presence of God, both the good parts and the bad parts. The bad parts will be embarrassing, and in that sense painful, but the point is not the pain, but the acknowledging that we messed up and how we could have done better. This is the experience that is referred to in the Bible as "judgment".

(Everything up to this point is based on a very vivid experience I had when my beloved aunt died. I say "some part of us" because I suspect that we also have parts that continue on in this dimension, but transfer to another member of our family in the form of a clan fetch, and I say that because I seem to have one of those myself, and she's certainly not going away just because some church tells her she doesn't exist. From here on in, it's speculation based on my reflections on the Bible.)

For people who had a genuine connection with the Divine in their lifetime, the experience will pass fairly quickly and could be described as a form of purgatory. For those who did not know the Divine in their lifetime, this experience may be traumatic enough that they find it difficult to move on from it, in which case it could be described as a form of hell. However, because (a) hell is where God is not, and yet (b) God in the form of Christ himself went to hell, and (c) God, hell and heaven are all outside of Time itself, there can't really be any hell, because wherever you look for it, God is always already there. So the logical conclusion of all this is that somewhere in that experience, everyone will encounter the Divine, at which point their experience will stop being hellish and they will be able to move on.

We'll then rest for a long time in an incorporeal form (I tend to visualise this as a version of the Summerlands) while we recover from this experience and assimilate what we've learned. We will then get new bodies, which will be different from our current ones in important ways that we don't yet understand, probably so different as to be subject to different rules of physics and only really described as bodies for convenience. Because of the purgatory/hell experience, we won't repeat the same mistakes in these bodies that we did in the old ones. I tend to think of them as energy bodies, made of the same Stuff as God, and because of that, we can experience God far more directly and more safely than we could before, and that experience is what we call heaven.

[qos.livejournal.com]

This is a wonderful response. Thank you!

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

You are most welcome. Thank you for the prompt.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

I figure I'll be finding out plenty soon enough, and in the meantime I have plenty of other stuff to worry about.

Um, "soon enough" being defined as 3+ decades barring accidents or being called up.

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

What do you believe about the afterlife?

I believe I am a being that is evolving and progressing through multiple mortal incarnations with the goal of achieving an immortal spiritual and physical state - transcendence if you will. As such, there are, for me, multiple "afterlives".

What happens after we die?

As part of the mortal incarnation, I choose to mostly not remember previous incarnations so I can start fresh in a new life and not carry the burden of previous mistakes. This way I can be assured that my decision making is based on the current state of my spirit and its understanding.

I believe when I die my essence or spirit will leave my body and, knowing me, this consciousness will engage in a review of the previous incarnation and start to make decisions about what course of action will help me to progress towards the goal of immortality. I hope that my friends and family will want to be near me to help the shock of the transition and change of state.

Where do we go?

Where ever we want and wherever we are comfortable. I am a being of free will, and as such, am free to make decisions about my actions. I believe there is work to do, both on a personal and social level. Many spirits exist side by side with us in the material world. I think for a time one has pangs missing mortality and mourning for one's mistakes, but again, that is by my will. Perhaps this sorrow for willful hate and negativity is as close as I can conceive of a hell. In the end I will need to heal, understand and resolve as part of my evolutionary process.

What choices do we have, if any?

The same as I have always had, to come or go, to love or not, to incarnate or not. I'll be in a transitional state and not have the corporal power nor mortal limitations. I do not know at what point I will have the option to choose an immortal body, but I kind of hope it is soon. The few years we have as Terrans are short, and I have things I would like to do that take more than our normal lifetimes.

Or do we simply cease to exist?

I suppose we can also choose the quiet darkness of nothingness.

And are the answers to those questions an important part of your spirituality/religious beliefs?

Well, for me, what would be the point of utilizing the energy of the universe if there wasn't forward momentum. Even the universe is expanding!

I loves me a Todd love song about now:
(Afterlife from the 'Liars' CD)

They say I don't think enough
about the afterlife
of what's below and above
it's all in black and white
they say there's only one kind of love
you have to choose just right
they say there's ony one kind of love

in the afterlife
kiss it all goodbye
in the afterlife
you don't get another try

but I can't see, I don't know how
that I won't be what I am now, no, no
even in my afterlife
and I won't have some other heart
that could find peace
though we're apart, no, no
even in my afterlife

it's not enough anymore
to be good in this life
they say you've got to be sure
so you can sleep at night
the only love that endures
gives up without a fight
the only love that endures

in the afterlife
kiss it all goodbye
in the afterlife
it was just a clever lie

if I could never see your face
then I would have to fall
from grace, I know
even in my afterlife
or for eternity be blind
to your presence in my mind, no
even in my afterlife

and they could promise me a seat
at the right side of the throne
but all would still be incomplete
within the holy host, alone
without the guiding light so sweet
that has forever led me on
for me there's no eternal rest
you and I have unfinished business
yes, yes

even in my afterlife

if I could still hold one thought clear
then you will instantly appear, I know
even in my afterlife

but I can't see, I don't know how
that I won't be what I am now, no
even in my afterlife
and I won't have some other heart
that could find peace
though we're apart, no
even in my afterlife

for I could not repose in bliss
nevermore to know your kiss

no, no

[qos.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your long answer, and especially the song.

I particularly like the closing lines. They certainly resonate with what I've been feeling about Lohain.

I also especially liked this: I have things I would like to do that take more than our normal lifetimes.

One more question: how much of this reflects the specific theology of your church, and how much goes beyond?

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

"I particularly like the closing lines. They certainly resonate with what I've been feeling about Lohain."

Suggest you download the song and listen to it with headphones. You'll no doubt cry, but I think this may be Todd's best love song. It is written in an altered state and the music may well put you there too (well, it does me). It's visionary, visceral and beautiful, and perhaps the heavens will open and show you the answers to your heartfelt questions.

Recently, as you know, I've had a chance to reflect upon the death of a friend. As I travelled to his memorial, I was listening to music when nearing his home. As I travelled close to the edge of his town, suddenly my friend was in the car. I tried to pretend not to notice, but my no-nonsense friend would not tolerate any coyness. (So like him!) After adjusting to his presence I connected in what might be called the psychic or soul way that we could in life. He knows me, and cutting to the chase I asked - well, what's it like? The answer was instant - "more wonderful than you can ever know". I started crying and the chills ran up and down my spine. I then asked something that I wouldn't normally tell you, except I think you need to hear it. Sometimes I wonder about moving on from the world sooner than later, and asked if/when/how/should it be my turn. The answer again was instant, surprising and matter of fact - "when your mission is complete". I think I laughed out loud because I knew he was exactly right and started smiling. I'm not finished yet! I thanked him for the reassurance. The rest of the exchange was about his family.

" have things I would like to do that take more than our normal lifetimes."

:) As Kate Hepburn as Queen Eleanor noted "The needlework alone...." :)

"One more question: how much of this reflects the specific theology of your church, and how much goes beyond?"

When I was three I had a NDE and can remember visions on the edge of my mind. When the missionaries came at 9 I already knew all they had to teach. Later when I had the formal initiation I also already knew what was happening. The closest I can come to explaining it is a kind of intuitive remembering.

Beside studying sacred text, my real heart influences are Todd and Robert Heinlein (!). The core of my faith is based on God (pick your model), love and freewill. Most of the things I have written here can be found in the formal theology of my religious upbringing, but have been simply written so as to be hidden until one was ready to understand and know that truth. (Thank you Valentine Michael Smith!)

The formal theology only recognizes the concept of Christian resurrection and translation into immortality as happened to the Enochians, John the Beloved and the 3 Nephites and as will happen to those who live into the millenium after the return of the Messiah. As to reincarnation, I think there are only 2 possible scenarios - everyone gets one chance, or everyone gets to go on the ride as often as they want. I can not conceive of a loving father/mother God who would tell me no if I asked for another learning opportunity, but they might counsel me. I suspect the theology doesn't want to deal with past life experience because it is very focused on HERE and NOW in terms of direction and that is a very proper message from God.

I had an interesting discussion with a professor teaching Healthy People/Healthy Places about reincarnation, health and transcending. He asked if it is possible to basicly immortalize the body and skip all the reincarnations. A captivating question, a fascinating thought which lead to many hours of contemplation. It would require the discipine of a holy person, and the strength to conquer bodily weakness. I hope I can talk to him more about it.

A Bishop once told me that "the veil is thin" for me. If you want to know, you too can part it and look, but the spirit must be willing to accept the truth that rushes in...

[qos.livejournal.com]

I'll definitely download the song.

Thanks again for sharing so much.

Hopefully you'll get to come up soon -- or I can visit down there. I'd love to share some of my recent experiences with you.

[(Anonymous)]

So far, i think you just melt away leaving everything behind as a testament to your existence. If you created something that can live on, you are in a sense still living through it.

I don't think your spirit or whatever it is that keeps you alive can make or understand any environment (here or beyond) without a brain to process the information. Maybe you will continiue to be potential energy or something?

[oakmouse]

I don't want to keep saying "I think" over and over again, so take it as read that the below describes my personal opinions. I don't view them as beliefs because I've arrived at them as a direct result of personal experience of the reality of each of these concepts. However I don't think that these ideas rule out other people's opinions either; the universe is a vast place and there's room for more than one truth in it.

The soul survives after the death of the body, and one choice it can make after the end of one life is to reincarnate. (More on choices below.) Each individual consists of both that which is eternal and enduring (the soul), and that which is a temporary manifestation relevant to a given incarnation (the personality). After death, the soul absorbs and integrates into itself those portions of the personality which carry the lessons and experiences of that lifetime, and releases those which are no longer relevant. This includes the process of reviewing the life in full detail and assimilating its events and experiences, which corresponds to the idea of purgatory extant in several religions.

Where do we go? Some go back into the next incarnation. Some stay out because they have work to do which is better accomplished outside of the body, or because they need a period of rest and healing, or because no suitable new incarnation is presently available to them, or because they're waiting for something specific to transpire before they reincarnate. The reasons are many. For those who stay out of the body, well, the inner realms are far vaster than anything in material manifestation, so many possibilities exist. I don't believe in the literal reality of heaven or hell or the Summerland or any of those other highly publicized destination resorts of the inner world, but I've seen souls manufacture one of these states for themselves via their responses to post-mortem existence.

Do we have choices? Absolutely. The question is how we decide to exercise them. A soul can choose to cling to its beliefs about what will happen after death, or can open itself to experience what is actually there. (I've seen this happen with the newly dead; it can be a strange and enlightening experience to midwife them through.) A soul can move toward its god(s), or away from him/her/them. A soul can refuse to go through the second death (the release of the personality from its incarnation) and can encyst itself within a wall of energy, remaining an solitary individual until it chooses to emerge. A soul can choose to fall into a deep sleep and rest in quiet darkness. A soul can run straight back into the first available incarnation, or can wait and evaluate the possibilities open to it and select when and where and with whom it will next take on material form.

As to the role of these opinions in my spiritual/religious experiences, well, given that I'm a priestess of the underworld these opinions reflect the reality I live with every day, so they arise directly from my religious and spiritual experiences rather than my religious and spiritual experiences arising from my opinions. If I found out that I was wrong about some of these ideas, it might affect my daily practice but it wouldn't affect my religious opinions significantly. The gods are real; I know this. The soul endures after the death of the body; I know this also. All else is, ultimately, a matter of personal interpretation of experiential phemonema. And interpretation is always open to question and reconsideration.

[queenofhalves]

i don't have any strong afterlife beliefs, but i hope for some form of reincarnation.

[royalbananafish.livejournal.com]

We go back to where we came from. Every thing is part of the one big thing--call it God/dess, call it the Universe, call it Shiva, whatever. We start there (which isn't a "there" so much as a state of being) and then come "here" (to another state of being). When we die, we go back "there."

Maybe part of going back "there" is experiencing a different kind of being, whether that is "living in heaven forever with God" or "reincarnation as a different person here (or a fly or a house plant or whatever)" or "hanging out in the Summerlands." I tend to think that IF your expectations get carried along with you when you die, you'll experience what you experience as much in accord with those expectations as possible.

See, we're only "here" because being all-knowing and such gets pretty dull after awhile. The Universe/God/whatever wants to taste every possible experience, and part of that is selective ignorance. So our main problem as humans is simply that we have forgotten that we're God. And so is everyone else.

We can't cease to be, because no thing can be created or destroyed. Every thing comes from the same place, and every thing goes to the same place after it stops existing here. (This tends to irk the hell out of people stuck in a judeo-christian heaven-hell thing, because there is no place set aside for the bad guys.)

[qos.livejournal.com]

An aspect of your comments resonates with something I was thinking of shortly before I posted: that if we all are absorbed back into the Oneness of God, completely losing our individuality, how can there truly be love, since love requires both self and other?

[parisgarters.livejournal.com]

I try to have very few preconceived notions about what happens after we die, especially because I find that people expect me to have LOTS of preconceived notions on the subject.

However, I do believe that there is something or somewhere because of some strange experiences I have had with loved ones who have died. We know so little, even about our lives here in this plane. I can't imagine knowing much about the next.

As someone once wrote, "heaven is the place where every pet you've ever had comes running to greet you." I'll take that for now.

PS - Did you read my latest post? Any insight would be much appreciated.

[qos.livejournal.com]

heaven is the place where every pet you've ever had comes running to greet you

I love that!

No, I hadn't read your post, but I'll click over and check it out.

[parisgarters.livejournal.com]

I think Brian McLaren said that, but I"ll go check.

[fifthconundrum.livejournal.com]

I once believed in heaven and hell, just like I was raised to do. Now, however, my answer to those questions is a quiet, "I don't know."

[qos.livejournal.com]

Which I still consider an eminently sensible answer.

[amqu.livejournal.com]

I will preface my answer by reminding you my beliefs are based totally on the Bible. You'd think that would mean I believe everything you believed before your college-age epiphany, but I have noticed over my time reading your journal that's not true.

What do you believe about the afterlife?

I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe there is life and there is death. It's an on/off switch.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol (common grave of mankind), the place to which you are going.


What happens after we die?

Psalms 146:4 - His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.


Where do we go?

God's memory.


What choices do we have, if any?

We don't get a choice on what happens to us after we die. Wishing won't get you to Valhalla if there is no such thing.


Or do we simply cease to exist?

As I mentioned above, you do cease to exist except in God's memory. However, there is a resurrection.

John 5:28, 29 - Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

I don't think that a resurrection of judgment means to bring someone back to life simply to pronounce judgment and kill them again. Romans clearly says that the wages sin pays is death. Therefore, once you've died, you've paid in full for all the sins of your life. A resurrection of judgment is a time for a person to prove through his continuing actions that he appreciates Jesus' sacrifice. Some people for whatever reason never got a chance to express faith in Jesus, maybe because they never heard of him or because they never got an accurate picture of Jesus in their lives previously.


And are the answers to those questions an important part of your spirituality/religious beliefs?

Central to my beliefs because it speaks to my purpose as a human. God made the Earth and humans for a purpose. We were to fill the earth, taking care of it and its inhabitants while worshiping our Creator. Because of selfishness and pride, sin entered. But that doesn't mean God abandoned his purpose. He is simply allowing the questions raised at that time - who has the right of sovereignty? God or His creation? - to be answered after which he will bring everything back under his authority. At that time, humans will be resurrected to live again on a perfected Earth without the sin and wickedness we now have to endure.

This imperfect life we are living is just a hiccup in time as it were. People have lost perspective on what is happening and assume this life is the only life we are capable of having. If I thought that, I'd be tempted to come up with an immortal soul/reincarnation/eventual-one-with-the-universe idea as well.

I believe this completely; however, I'm okay with people disagreeing with me.

[qos.livejournal.com]

Your response does surprise me -- but it's certainly not the first time.
;-)

I've never seen the different teachings on what happens after death harmonized quite that way. Thanks for taking the time to share. I always appreciate learning more about your beliefs.

[athenian-abroad.livejournal.com]

No surprises from this quarter I'm afraid. ;-)

[qos.livejournal.com]

It's nice to know that I can count on some things being unchanging.
;-)

[professor-mom.livejournal.com]

I pulled out my old copy of the Bhagavad Gita to give expression to what I believe about death and the afterlife. Here are some of my favorite quotes:

“He is never born, nor does he ever die; nor once having been, does he cease to be. Unborn, eternal, everlasting, ancient, he is not slain when the body is slain.

The eternal unmanifested absolute nature of the spirit or self, is ever unaffected by happenings in the relative field. .. Without beginning or end, it knows no birth or death. Whether in this or that body, the self continues to be. The immutable eternal life remains through the ever-changing phases of the bodies which it takes. “

This is a discussion of the essence of life. At our very essence we are infinite and everlasting. Our bodies are only here for a very brief time and then we take another and another until we are released from worldy incarnations.

“Certain indeed is death for the born and certain is birth for the dead; therefore over the inevitable you should not grieve.” The commentator goes on to explain that we are evolving toward union with god and that every birth and death is another step in evolution toward what is inevitable.

Other books which I currently read which have influenced my afterlife beliefs: “At Home With God by Neale Donald Walsch and "Course in Miracles."

Hope you are doing better.