Queen of Swords

Initial thoughts: Spirituality doesn't come in two flavors, one for men and one for women. I don't have the original article so I can't see specifically to what the author was referring. To the extent that each individual is different (and gender will exert some influence on this), he will find some things more compelling than others and will incorporate that into his spirituality.

We will use LOTR as an example. Does Aragorn's sense of duty equal masculine spirituality? Does his faithfulness to Arwen equal masculine spirituality? Why would that be different from Eowyn's acute sense of duty and faithfulness to her people? It wouldn't. Aragorn and Eowyn are different people and though they share similar traits, they express them in different ways because of their individuality. It so happens that a portion of that individuality has developed because of their disparate experiences due to gender.

What about Frodo? He also has a sense of duty and faithfulness. We have to take into consideration his essential person as well. Is it primarily gender driven or hobbit driven? He expresses and internalizes his duty and faithfulness through his desire for stability and home and six squares a day - mustn't forget second breakfast and elevensies. ;) Not through gender, but through basic personality differences.

I can't say I've ever looked into "women's studies" or gender-specific spirituality before, so I may just be speaking from my own prejudices. But frankly, I find the whole idea of masculine or feminine spirituality to be malarkey. As a Christian, Jesus is my exemplar. Male or female, he embodies everything a person hopes to attain spiritually. You just tailor it to fit your basic personality.

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grailquestion.livejournal.com

I have an odd relationship with...I suppose I'll call it gendered spirituality. I have a friend whom I love dearly, but I have avoided participating in spiritual activities with her because she is at a point in her life where she feels she must elevate the feminine to the exclusion of all else. I tend to be gender blind and find discussions of "inherent" masculinity or femininity to be narrow and irritating. Yet I can see where people feel the need to compensate for a poor sense of gender identity by attaching themselves to a divine image. (I think that sounds harsher than what I actually feel...)

In modern paganism, there is a miserable lack of good healthy images of the divine masculine, and I think the movement as a whole suffers because of it. It becomes pigeonholed as a "female empowerment" movement rather than a genuine, inclusive religion that can embrace all that is human.

It's odd to me that people would say you are masculine in your thinking. I don't think that label really means much. You are strong, skeptical, direct, spiritual; why are these things necessarily masculine? There is much in woman that is strong, forceful, unyielding, and warrior-like. The Mother can be gently nurturing, or She can shape us by being strong, relentless, and unyielding.

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PS: Online, I am almost invariably mistaken for a man. Why? Because without the very significant visual cues, *grin* I don't fit the "feminine" stereotype of sugar and spice and everything nice. So how could a "feminine" spirituality fulfill my needs? Does it make me less of a women if I need to co-opt 75% of what is considered "masculine" spirituality in order to be spiritually fulfilled?

Which goes back to my personal opinion that, although gender plays a major role in who we are, it doesn't play the most significant role in our makeup. It factors into how we see ourselves but is not definitive in the sense that females will always think and behave one way and males another. There are parameters of human thinking. What makes us who we are, no matter what our gender, is where we fall on that scale. There is no part of that scale that is "men only" or "female only."

That's all for now. ;)

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The thing that bothers me most about LOTR is the absence of the female. Yeah, I know there are female characters at the edges, but the fact remains that they are absent from the heart of the book. And no-one misses them!

Tolkien was a bluff old early 20th century codger and this was his world- the trenches, the common-room- a world without women.

Does that make the spirituality of his book masculine? I don't know. Frodo and Sam- it seems to me- are asexual characters. You could rewrite them as women and nothing but the pronouns would have to be changed.

"Masculine Spirituality?" It's a concept I shy away from. Iron John, sweat lodges, drumming- all that stuff- I find it utterly repugnant. I don't want to be part of anything that excludes women.

I feel instinctively that gender-specific spirituality is the wrong way to go. There's something shrill about it. And in my experience anger and violence are never far away.

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fifthconundrum.livejournal.com

Up until this year I attended Christian churches that solely referred to God in the masculine. In the past couple of years, though, I prefer to refer to God in a genderless fashion, or by alternating between the masculine and feminine pronouns. While I admit that I am most comfortable with keeping a distinct emotional distance from males at this time in my life, I am not comfortable thinking of God as solely masculine or feminine; it feels like I'm missing out by pigeonholing God that way.

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saskia139.livejournal.com

*hearts your icon*

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saskia139.livejournal.com

I was just talking with my husband last night about how certain spiritual/magical systems feel too gendered for me to be comfortable with them. Wicca, for example, despite having its origins in Gerald Gardner's explorations of how to fulfill his spiritual needs, seems very "girly" to me; the feminine is exalted over the masculine, the High Priestess is the chief authority, and there are often strong expectations for gender roles. I'd make a *terrible* Wiccan because I'm un-intuitive, intellectual, and far better at sending energy than sensing or receiving it; it's my husband who'd make the better High Priestess!

Golden Dawn magic, on the other hand, seems decidedly masculine, as does Masonry. That's okay, except that women *did* and do participate in the former. I have no problem with Masonry being a "guy thing"; I do have a problem with a system that admits women seeming so male-oriented. Just the body language of its magical gestures seems awkward for the female body, let alone the use of Hebrew names for the Divine as key magical words.

In general, I am deeply suspicious of anything that purports to be specific to one sex or another, outside of trousers. *g* I don't think there's such a difference between male and female types of creativity, or spirituality, that we need gender-oriented books to help us out. Wearing trousers cut for a man, however, is just not practical for a woman.

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gothic-coop.livejournal.com

I have never seen spirituality as gender specific. Even though in most Christ base churches are using God in a masculine sense. All of this is very odd to me in my own spiritual ways. I see that body and physical rites of passage are based culturally not per say, Spirituality, unless you view of your "High Powe"' Is a Female.

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I belong to a faith that views God as the Father. However, that has absolutely no bearing on whether spirituality is basically masculine. The two are not related in my mind.

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moonborn.livejournal.com

The thing that bothers me most about LOTR is the absence of the female. Yeah, I know there are female characters at the edges, but the fact remains that they are absent from the heart of the book. And no-one misses them!
Trying to imagine a book in which the fellowship was made up entirely of women, and along the way they ran into these tempting hunks of dutiful princehood and so forth, is rather mind-boggling. And I can't honestly think of a genre in which all major players were female would not be a strange event - proof positive the culture our texts reflect still has a ways to go in viewing each gender equally.

Frodo and Sam- it seems to me- are asexual characters. You could rewrite them as women and nothing but the pronouns would have to be changed.
I think Sam's hero-worship and deference to frodo may jar. Idolisation of the sort he does seems to be a very masculine thing in our society.

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moonborn.livejournal.com

But I've been wondering recently what parts of Men's Spirituality would speak to me if I started exploring it. I have, after all, been called "masculine" in my thinking and attitudes on several occasions, by a diverse group of people.

*winces*
Ouch.
Who's to say that analytical thinking is NOT feminine? And that intuitive, emotional attitudes are not masculine?
I'm pretty heavily Dianic-influenced in my own spirituality, and have enjoyed it for the opportunity to "break the mold" from these gendered roles; to explore Kali the destroyer and Pan the nurturer. I also think that gendered space is a valuable space, because so much of who we are is shaped by our gender. In this society we are treated differently according to our genders, and encouraged to develop our personalities in different ways, dependent upon whether we are perceived to be male or female. And I think the roles into which we are forced can be as constrictive for men as for women.
However, I think some people seem to get terribly bogged down in the polarity of the gender bit, and fail to move on to ther integration and breaking down of genderised barriers, or incorporate this into their beliefs.

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drowning-valor.livejournal.com

I can not ask you to believe what I write, but I trust your judgment enough to try to give you the truth. For a moment, please consider the power of voiceless communication (ie the internet, any body of literature), and then think about your friends both on-line and off in terms of their gender. How much do you know about them and how well they identify with their assigned gender roles? You accept them as people first, individual spiritual beings, and as man, woman or other secondly (if that). Now, JRR Tolkien was a man and a proud one at that, so he is naturally prone to write strong male characters with whom he identifies and glorifies. I won't judge him for that. I know you don't know me and I haven't posted much at all, but from what you know, please try to pick out who is writing this and I'll explain why it was important to leave the gender on my profile inspacific. PS-- Clue: I friended you because I am close to lee (_storyteller_) and I liked so much of what you posted, especially this post. Thank you.

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I think Sam's hero-worship and deference to frodo may jar. Idolisation of the sort he does seems to be a very masculine thing in our society.

I couldn't disagree with that more. Just look at high school cliques. Or the idolatry of modern pop stars. That is certainly not a masculine bastion.

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queenofhalves

women's spirituality stuff has helped me come to terms with being female. i expect men's spirituality stuff could do the same for many men who are uncomfortable with being male.

while i don't actively seek out women-only spiritual circles, my experiences of being in them have been *really* different from being in mixed-gender circles -- and meaningful. single-gender circles are an experience worth exploring, in my opinion.

you know my generally negative feelings about systems that insist on gender polarity, and my love for all forms of genderfuck. nevertheless i do think the gendered ways in which we're socialized (and to a lesser extent, the chemical and biological equipment we're born with) have profound effects on our spirituality. i think gendered spirituality can bring us into more satisfying relationship with those aspects of ourselves.

my overall attitude toward religious imagery is to leave nothing out. some groups get around the gender thing by removing all mention of gender in language about god/dess. i'd rather use many different metaphors about god/dess, and multiple pronouns, and many names. something for everyone! (since it's totally not reasonable to expect the same language to work for everybody)

as for the LOTR-specific thing -- i think it's always been assumed that women can identify with male characters but men can't identify with female characters (sadly enough). i'm sure the use of LOTR in men's spirituality wouldn't exclude the idea of women identifying with the characters as well in most people's minds. but i can see why the prevalence of interesting male characters would make it appealing to people who are trying to create more meaningful spiritual roles for men.

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But Sam's deference jars now anyway. He's a first world war batman. The relationship between Frodo and Sam comes out of a class system that Tolkien accepted unquestioningly, but which no longer exists.

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I'd like to think that the assumption that "men can't identify with female characters" is changing. I identified very strongly with the female characters in Xena and Buffy. And I don't suppose those series would have been so successful if a lot of men hadn't done the same.

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Hi -

I noticed your name on my Friends Of list a little while ago, and clicked back until I saw

_storyteller_'s name on your Friends list.

My guess has been that you are the person with whom he is traveling to Arizona right now. (Since you haven't mentioned your name or gender, I won't either.)

Whether you are that person or not, you're welcome to my LJ and, you have my thanks for contributing to this discussion.

When I first started LJ it occurred to me to leave my gender unspecific, because I was curious what assumptions would be made about me. But then I realized that it would be hard for me to discuss some things that are very important to me without being specific about my gender. So I settled for leaving my name out.

Why was it important to you to leave your gender unspecific? And I've been curious about your LJ name. Are you willing to share the significance?

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toesontheground.livejournal.com

I've not thought much about gender and spirituality, except that I've noticed that heavily gendered spiritual imagery and language (either way) tends to turn me off - possibly because I'm thinking of language that tends to carry with it gender role assumptions that piss me off! But then I think the most intensive period of thinking I've done about my gender stuff was before the most intensive period of thinking I've done about my spirituality stuff.

I've always liked that Jesus is both nurturing and butt-kicking at times (to take the most simple and simplisitic of examples and dualities).

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drowning-valor.livejournal.com

I hope this is private. All though I eventually plan on writing more specific posts and reveals, I do not necessarily find it comfortable as of yet. The person to whom you referred as Lee's companion is Jess, his wife and can be found at lj in her own right in old posts at vsmallgodess. She no longer posts, (has a myspace account) but if you check it out, you may see that our writing styles have little in common. However, this does not necessarily mean that you are in correct. My name is Jacq Valor. I am nineteen years old. Jess is what Lee and I refer to as my 'Soul Twin'. we are very much like brother and sister, but not related other than spiritually. I love Lee very much and his own Soul Twin has been exceptionally close to me. From there it all gets a bit muddled, I'm afraid. But I will be posted more as I can. Till then, all my Hope and Joy, Jacq.

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Hi Jacq:

Unfortunately, your comment was not private. My original entry was public, so anyone who reads my journal could read your comment. On the other hand, your comment was posted fairly late in the thread, and I don't know how many people go back and read an entry more than once, so it's entirely possible no one else will see it. If this makes you uncomfortable, you should go back and click the red X to delete your comment. I won't take offense.

I don't know anyone else in Lee's life, except a couple of people who regularly comment on his LJ. I had never heard of you, so I could not have guessed who you were. There are other things I could comment on, but since this is not private, I won't do that.

In any case, you are welcome, and I look forward to making your better acquaintance.

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moonborn.livejournal.com

Ha! So true.

I guess I'm thinking about the fact that even in the female relationships I've read (having never experienced similar), the 'duty of care' doesn't seem to be QUITE as reciprocal between women as between men -- there seems to be taht danger of the "upper" woman "falling" through too close an association with her underling - a problem that doesn't tend to be presented with men, except in extreme cases such as Dorian Gray's opium experience.

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That's interesting. Western literature is full of warm co-dependent master-servant relationships. Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, Mr Pickwick and Sam Weller, Wooster and Jeeves. I can't think of any female equivalents.

Lady's maids tend to be cast as mischievous free spirits- Maria in Twelth Night, Susanna in The Marriage of Figaro.

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fifthconundrum.livejournal.com

I'd like to think it's changing, too, but I don't believe it is...rather, it's changing at the speed of a glacier. The heel-digging, screaming resistance of all of the male Christians I know to refer to God as "She" is proof positive of that.

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I know what you mean. My primary reason for quitting Christianity for Paganism was so that I could acknowledge the Goddess.

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the concentration of a vast amount of popular spirituality is on the feminine

I think you are right about this. I wonder if part of the reason is that "spirituality" transcends specific religious tradition, and is generally less involved in rules and tradition. The feminine qualities that don't get expressed as much in traditional religion are finding an outlet in "spirituality."

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I'd make a *terrible* Wiccan because I'm un-intuitive, intellectual, and far better at sending energy than sensing or receiving it

You and me both!
Although I'm doing better in the intuitive in recent years, and I do think that my exposure to Wicca is part of it.

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I also think that gendered space is a valuable space, because so much of who we are is shaped by our gender.

I agree with you on this. I was deeply suspicious of single sex environments until I took a class at Scripps, an all-woman college. It was a paradigm-shifting experience. Later, I did a 9-month women's spirituality course that was all-women, and that too was a unique and wonderful experience. In some ways, I think both helped me value my own womanhood more. Both certainly gave me new insights into and experience with spirituality.

I wouldn't want to spend all my time in single-gender space, but I do think it can be valuable.

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